Summary: For Generation Z, dating is unlike anything seen before. An episode on reality TV shows its weirdness, providing a report from the front lines of the gender wars. Will dating bring the people of Gen Z to fulfilling lives — or be a bridge to nowhere?
A first date on “Celebs Go Dating”
I am two generations removed from the modern dating scene. My knowledge of it comes from reports of my two sons and young men I led in Boy Scouts. This little vignette epitomizes what they tell me. It took place on the British reality TV show “Celebs Go Dating.”
It pairs a very beautiful and very intelligent young woman with a not-too-bright hunk of a man. {Names deleted to limit their embarrassment.}
Closely watch this excerpt from this date and record your impressions about what happened. Post them in the comments.
{Clip removed by the station. Probably too politically incorrect.}
It is a classic confrontation in the form of what used to be called “dates.” He employs Game; she opens with “shit tests” (aggressive probes to determine if the guy is an alpha or beta).
The annotations — and reactions on social media (see below) — show that people believe that Mike lost, big-time, on this date. Let’s look deeper.
The transcript
This is from “Roissy” at Chateau Heartiste. I have edited and paraphrased it; see Roissy’s original for more detail. Some of the best interactions are visual, and so omitted from the transcript. Warning: Chateau Heartiste features racist, sexist, and white nationalist content. It is very politically incorrect.
0:18 — He opens with a conventional compliment: “You look nice tonight.”
0:24 — She opens with a test. “{Look} Up here please.” A betadroid would have apologized for his impudence. He replies, quite sensibly, that a woman doesn’t wear a sheer blouse if she does not want to be look at.
0:30 — She hits him with her second shit test, and it’s a doozy: calling him stupid. Again, he passes it easily by resorting (in so many words) to the classic CH Game technique Agree & Amplify. At 0:46, you see the effect his ZFG insouciance it has on her (it lights up her face).
0:48 — He flips the script and challenges her to a battle of wits. Now she has to qualify herself to him. (Remember a key Game concept: when a girl feels like she’s chasing, she’s tingling.) He plays a childish word game. She eagerly complies. That’s our hero’s first compliance hoop, which she jumped through no questions asked. Chicks dig children’s games.
1:10 — She wins, and believes that she has zinged him. He turned the tables on her by teasing her for “ruining” the game. She gets more interested.
1:14 — Her: “because I’m just clever.” HIM: “hmm”. Nuclear Neg. (You don’t have to say much to get your neg across.)
1:22 — Her: I’m a beauty contest winner. He: how many women entered? She: “about 10,000.” She wins.
1:30 — She spends some time trying to DHV him with her plans to become Miss England. {Demonstrated Higher Value, aka one upmanship}. Instead of groveling before her beauty like a beta, he (figuring out quickly what she was up to) simply changes the subject to her surname.
1:45 — He says his surname “stands for seaman”. …
1:55 — Another test: she asks him if he speaks Greek, first time in English then in Greek. Instead of a direct response (aka the dancing monkey response), he replies by asking if she speaks Greek. She says yes. …He asks her in Greek if “she wants a cucumber up her bum.” …
2:04 — Her face at this moment is that perfect mix of anger and arousal. Remember the CH maxim: The opposite of love isn’t hate; it’s indifference.
2:07 — She calls him a wanker. That would make a beta male turtle and beg forgiveness ….This is why betas fail with beautiful women. /ourGreek/ knows the score; …he quickly and unceremoniously announces he’s ready to go and she’d should hurry and down her drink {which she does}. This accomplishes three objectives: it shows he cares not a whit for her opinion (which raises his SMV relative to hers), it disrupts her thoughts (she thinks she has hand, but now she doesn’t), and it puts him in control.
2:16 — “I’m gonna play Flappy Bird while you drink that”. Silly non sequiturs are an integral part of pickup, best used at the moment you’ve brought a girl to genuine anger. It deflates her previous ire over his demands on her to hurry up and finish drinking. …
2:25 — He: “‘You’re drunk so I’ll put you in a cab home unless you want to do something you regret tomorrow, like have sex.” This rejiggers her self-identification from “I’m a hottie every man wants me” to “This guy wants to send me home and he’s been teasing me all night — am I not hot enough for him?”
2:37 — Final test. She tells him she’s going home after the date. He replies “No. I’m not. You are.” …
End scene with a simultaneous lean-in and hot kiss. Even if that was in the script, she need not have been so enthusiastic about it. I dated a lot in my 20s; dates often ended with a lot less than Mike got. Her boyfriend probably agreed that this was quite a hot kiss. This tweet (real or not) showed how most guys would react.
{Tweet about this removed.}
Women and soyboys went wild!
“…with viewers branding him ‘vile’ over the way he treated potential suitor Emma. …Fans of the show couldn’t believe their eyes after the reality star kissed another girl behind Emma’s back {before the date} … {Daily Mail.}
Twitter burned with the outrage of those condemning Mike for breaking the rules, and winning rather than playing the game by her rules and losing. My favorite tweet…
I’d love to be on #CelebsGoDating I wouldn’t let anyone like #MuggyMike treat me like that! He well are truly disrespected that woman! He will never find love acting like that!
— ShazzyB (@TheRealShazzzy) February 5, 2018
Conclusions
Girls that like bad boys are as old as history. Guys like George Wickham in Pride & Prejudice
That is what we see, spontaneously or scripted, in this video. How should guys respond? Girls that want bad boys like Wickham cannot be treated like Elizabeth Bennet. Guys attempting to do so are brushed off as “boring.” On the other hand, who can take a women seriously who acts as Emma does in this video? In response to modern young women, men have developed the tactics called Game.
Let’s go one step further. What’s the point of studying and working for decades if girls consider nice boys to be boring — and just want to have fun with bad boys? Instead follow the easy path: study Game, work the minimum necessary, and enjoy booze, drugs, sports, and games. Imagine a world in which Wickham is the successful model for young men.
Of course, most will want to settle later — but that’s another subject (see the posts in section two here).
For More Information
For more about modern dating, see these posts by the invaluable Dalrock. Here are a two of his best. First, “why women lose the dating game” gives the same message about marriage that I’ve said many times — the next 15 years will be critical for America. Second, how women see dating: as a reality show where they are both the prize (passive) and the judge (in control).
Ideas! For shopping ideas, see my recommended books and films at Amazon.
If you liked this post, like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. See all posts about women and gender, about feminism, about romance, about marriage, about ways to reform America, and especially these…
- The revolution in gender roles reshapes society in ways too disturbing to see — Bloom on relationships.
- Love in the new world, after the gender wars — Allan Bloom on the ‘fall of Eros.’
- Mark Regnerus’s essay: Cheap Sex is the Inconvenient Truth in the end of marriage.
- About Mark Regnerus’ book: Misadventures of a young woman in modern America.
- A look at America’s future after marriage becomes rare.
- The disastrous results of trying to “have it all”.
- The coming crash as men and women go their own way.
Two books by Professor’s Regnerus about the revolution.
Premarital Sex in America: How Young Americans Meet, Mate, and Think about Marrying
Strongly recommended: Cheap Sex: The Transformation of Men, Marriage, and Monogamy
Available at Amazon.
Available at Amazon.
Thing is 99% of women aren’t that hot, so you don’t really need to develop that jedi mastery of game to succeed.
A little teasing, dress well, don’t be a doormat, most guys will do just fine.
Gerard,
To be clear, very roughly how old are you? In these things your age matter. The dating game is changing fast. The world of the people now in their 20’s is quite different than when I was dating in the 1970s.
41, I departed the dating market about 4 years ago, It certainly gets easier as you get older.
The couple in the video are an extreme outlers, each in there own way total arseholes. If you tried that kind of approach with a more normal woman it would end in disaster, seduction has to be carefully tailored to its target.
Not all women are future Miss England contestants with an entitlement complex. Bravo to douche bag though, he played his hand perfectly, not sure he’ll get laid out of it though.
Game contains some useful truths, but you have to be careful, you can start to view women as merely a collection of instincts to be manipulated, they will quickly pick up on that, as it infects you with a bitter cynicism, which is poison to a good relationship.
Bottom line is women in general like a challenge, they like to have fun, they like fun, straight forward guys! who know how to relax, and why wouldn’t they? Those are traits that would serve most people well. As men, under pressure of trying to get laid, forget that it’s meant to be fun, spontaneous, exciting! Women don’t need us as much now to have fulfilling interesting lives, we just have to understand that our role for women has changed somewhat, but they still want us, they just don’t want us to be John Wayne all the time. We just have to learn that this is a liberation for us as well.
If I had advice for young men now, is to wait until there more mature before marrying, there is no rush for a man, and when you do marry, make sure you still have an active social life, whether its playing sports, hobbies, beers with your friends, educating yourself, whatever it takes to keep you interesting and lively and happy.
I have a 14 month old boy, I’m going to try to be that example for him.
Gerard,
“41, I departed the dating market about 4 years ago”
As the post says, this is about Generation Z. You and I are in a different world.
As much as there is wrong with the concept of “game”–I hope you’ll look into the many accounts of people who found it to be a soul-wrenching ripoff–if some woman is more interested in testing me than in having a nice date, why should I even give here the time of day?
PAT,
Your comment sounds like someone watching their first cricket match. It only seems simple.
(1) Of course it is “soul wrenching.” But guys must adapt to the rules that women set. If they want bad boys, guys must adapt to that.
(2) “ripoff”
All difficult skills are considered “ripoffs” by those who don’t master them. It’s become a big thing because it works. Deny that to your heart’s content. The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on.
(3) “if some woman is more interested in testing me than in having a nice date, why should I even give here the time of day?”
First, it is not “some women.” It’s a large fraction of the young women in the dating market. Second, the market has shrank because many women aren’t interested (delaying it until “they’re ready” at 28 – 30) — or obese. So those women in the market have hand, and use it.
@Notorious P.A.T
Yeah, I have the same reaction when I see young people buy into “the game” stuff. While it’s understandable that many young people are insecure and vulnerable in today’s society, it’s sad to see many drawn to this kind of ‘self-help’ that ultimately offers nothing but a series of toxic behaviors that will lead them further into alienation and loneliness.
Grommet,
“that ultimately offers nothing but a series of toxic behaviors that will lead them further into alienation and loneliness.”
What is the basis for that prediction?
“All difficult skills are considered “ripoffs” by those who don’t master them. It’s become a big thing because it works.”
This is a timeless snake oil sales method. You tell whatever sucker you’re trying to sell your book, seminar or whatever to that maybe they’re just not ready for the forbidden knowledge you’re offering.
Just imagine replacing every mention of the “The Game” with “The Secret” and think about how ridiculous it sounds:
“That is the wrong framing. It’s not binary. The Secret is effective. The question is how many young men can effectively employ it, at what benefit, and at what cost.”
Monsieur,
I appreciate the confidence with which you are speaking — declaring so many young men’s experience to be invalid. Please share with us the basis for it.
The only thing I’ve seen on display here is the opinions of a senior citizen deeply invested in PUA/red pill internet culture speaking on behalf of young men. Please stop giving bad advice to people 1/3 your age.
Monsieur,
I asked: “I appreciate the confidence with which you are speaking — declaring so many young men’s experience to be invalid. Please share with us the basis for it.”
Your reply: “The only thing I’ve seen on display here is the opinions of a senior citizen deeply invested in PUA/red pill internet culture speaking on behalf of young men.”
(1) Good to know your comment is just making stuff up. Not a surprise. Judgemental comments lacking specifics usually are.
(2) Please read more carefully. I’ll recap the relevant part sentence from the post.
Who outsmarted Who?
If anything, Emma enjoyed being the smart one.
Mike did what, apparently, he always does, and got what he wanted. Many people don’t want to see how the sausage is made.
-“Loik the food not, loik, a knob y’know?”
Cato,
That’s a great observation. I’d state that even more broadly: Emma enjoyed being the smart one, she was entertained by Mike’s Game, and liked the kiss.
If she had gone out with a nice boy — good in school, knew trigonometry, passed the CPA exam, had an intelligent conversation with her over dinner — she would have given him a handshake and told her girl friends what a bore he was.
If sex is allowed outside the Old Testament context of lifelong marriage with divorce forbidden, the upper hand in any sexual relationship belongs to the partner who places less value on that relationship. For the men who get this, sex is cheap and abundant. For the men who don’t, sex is nonexistent.
I recommend saving up your money and expatriating to a country with nicer women, but you must always treat them as the replaceable parts they are. If you get oneitis for any woman, she will destroy you.
Dave,
“the Old Testament context of lifelong marriage with divorce forbidden, ”
See Deuteronomy 24:1-4. Divorce was easy for men to obtain. Of course, we have only this one paragraph text —
and don’t know how this worked in practice. But divorce was not forbidden.
Where men have such power, they seldom abuse it. Men do not divorce without good reason, and their wives are careful not to give them a reason. Outside the first world, you write up a divorce decree and hand it to the judge with an envelope full of cash, and in Muslim countries it’s even easier.
Dave,
Now that’s an interesting – and very politically incorrect — observation! Worth some thought…
Like you, Larry, I’ve been out of the dating scene for a long, long, long time, but I hear about this stuff. In my case, it’s from my nephew. So thanks for the window into what the world’s become.
I guess it’s like business. You have to know your market. You have to know what they’re looking for and why. You spoke in one of your posts about tech marketing, I think, about the supreme value of new ideas. There’s a seller’s market for sports cars. Don;t be that guy selling station wagons. You can tell ’em that the station wagon costs a lot less, that it breaks down less often, and you can haul a lot more stuff in it, but the sports car is more fun. The customer may or may not always be right for any given definition of that word, but the customer has the final say. The buyer isn’t always right, but she’s always the buyer.
I see two debates played out about the ideas of Red Pill and Game. One of them is about whether its effective, and the other is about whether it’s right by the standards of some past time. if you’re a young man in the dating market, one of those discussions is worth having, and one of them is wasting your time.
The Man,
“One of them is about whether its effective”
That is the wrong framing. It’s not binary. Game is effective. The question is how many young men can effectively employ it, at what benefit, and at what cost.
“the other is about whether it’s right by the standards of some past time.”
What would the Scythians say about American culture? Nobody cares. Certainly the people of Gen Z don’t care what Boomers think of their world. Nor should they.
“That is the wrong framing. It’s not binary. Game is effective. The question is how many young men can effectively employ it, at what benefit, and at what cost.”
My first reaction this was that well it’s binary to you, because it works for you or it doesn’t work. .But on sober reflection, you’ve got a point and that’s probably a better way to frame it. The guy is weighing his every word and gesture. He’s willing to make the effort and accept the cost.
The Man,
“because it works for you or it doesn’t work.”
I disagree. Does a new haircut or lipstick work for a girl? How do you know? These things are incremental; they are seldom life changing.
“The guy is weighing his every word and gesture.”
That’s not Game. Game is primarily an attitude. ZFG. Assumed superiority. All flows from that. For most guys, that’s all they need — and all that they’re going to use.
The Man,
Follow-up to “The guy is weighing his every word and gesture.”
See the 16 Rules of Game at Chateau Heartiste (see the Warning in this post). These are the opposite of “weighing every word and gesture.”
He is weighing every word to make it look like he isn’t weighing every word. It’s on TV, so every thing is scripted anyway.
JT,
Nope. Look at any book about Game. They all give the exact opposite advice.
Also, I doubt that Mike has that level of intellectual capacity.
And a quick question. To start a business you need capital. So is the ability to use game partly a question of having the starting social capital, however that’s defined?
The Man,
“To start a business you need capital.”
People have different uses for metaphors. I’ll believe Americans tend to go to far with the Life is War, Sports, or Business metaphors. Especially too far applying the to social life, such as dating and marriage. Apples and hedgehogs — it’s best not to confuse them.
“however that’s defined?”
In Game the relevant metric is usually described as SMV (social/sexual market value). Here’s a score sheet for women and for men. But most people have a precise knowledge of their own “number.” If they don’t, some experience in the wild will force an adjustment.
“a question of having the starting social capital”
People can adjust the “capital” or “value” with work. Men can exercise, dress better, make money, cultivate Game, etc. Girls can smile, dress better, use make-up, etc.
While I agree dating has changed, looking at celebs on TV is not a reliable way to see what trends work. For one thing, it’s almost impossible to act the same in front of a camera as off it, even if the show isn’t manipulated or scripted to keep the viewers. What keeps viewers? Outrage! Also, celebrity relationships are part of the celebrity marketing as well.
Also I’ve read a bit about “game,” and I think there is some truth to it, but there is a ton of snake oil related to it as well. You asked some commenters here for proof, but you should really ask for proof from the mouthpieces of game, since they are the ones making the propositions. In the long run, it’s a morally bankrupt system that pretty much claims “oh well, good has lost the fight, so I will just join in with the Wickhams and get my piece of the cheese and add to the decay.”
Finally while men may be doing this in response to what women are offering today, the bottom line is that men are letting women behave like they are. Men are the leaders in society, and as a whole we could make some huge changes in communities that would bring the ladies around. Unfortunately there would be attempts to undermine that from a very noisy segment of society.
JT,
(1) “looking at celebs on TV is not a reliable way to see what trends ”
Please read more carefully. I said “My knowledge of it comes from reports of my two sons and young men I led in Boy Scouts. This little vignette epitomizes what they tell me.” Also, at the end: “Even if that was in the script, she need not have been so enthusiastic about it.”
(2) “but there is a ton of snake oil related to it as well.”
There is a “ton of snake oil” associated with all goods and services. Watch car commercials on TV — do you believe they really make you manly and attractive to women? Does smoking cigarettes make men and women cool? Do women’s hair products give them the hair of glamour models? Does Dove give women silky smooth skin? Then there are political commercials…
(3) “it’s a morally bankrupt system’
Have you really read much by people using Game, or just read leftists condemning it? Most of the proponents of Game consider it a method to cope with a decadent society. Methods to respond to social trends they despise (e.g., life on the Highway to Hell). Hence the increasing political commentary in these circles (e.g., Chateau Heartiste) — mostly on the alt-Right side.
(4) “good has lost the fight, so I will just join in with the Wickhams and get my piece of the cheese and add to the decay.”
Yes, that’s exactly it for the young men on the bottom rungs of society.
(5) “Men are the leaders in society”
You need to get out more. Talk to bartenders, auto mechanics, clerks in corporate cubicles. Tell them they “are the leaders of society.” The key aspect of Game that you — and leftists — ignore is its class basis. Our society works great for men and women on the top rungs (20%, to pick a figure). For those lower down, not so much.
(6) “a whole we could make some huge changes in communities that would bring the ladies around.”
That’s an interesting idea. Take it on the road — telling the “ladies” that men are leaders who will lead the reform of America. If you live through the first few presentations, report back on your findings.
Or you could go to some blue collar bars and preach to them. They will be more polite, and just laugh at you. They don’t see themselves as “leaders.” The past few generations grew up watching films, TV shows, and commercials that show men (esp husbands and fathers) as buffoons to be instructed and led by women (examples here). They also show women casually hitting men — often their boyfriends — (examples here), with the men cowering in response.
Larry, please go to a blue collar bar and tell people in the most humorless, self-righteous way possible that they should be upset about a sock commercial and see the reaction you get.
Someone once said that game is essentially libertarianism applied to inter sexual dynamics. In a capitalist system everybody can get rich, or so they say, but if everyone is rich, then nobody is. Game is the same thing. These principles do work to a certain degree, however, not everybody can be an alpha male.
Game works. If you want to have hooksups with women, maybe even just have a long term relationship with one, you need it.
It seems clear to me you, author, deeply believes in it… more so than in past posts, or so is the impression i received; and you are probably correct.
I only want to add this: in your exchange with “notorious pat”, i think you missed at least part of the point: it is heartbreaking to do this kind of shit just to interact with women, and the point could be that it is too much to swallow. This guy in the video…. he probably scored in one week more girls that i had in my life – i am a bit introverted, so the number of women i had can be counted on my fingers.
Still, i wouldnt want to be him. Even if he was faking it, i wouldnt want to be him. I would love to be able to get the attention he receives from hot women, but – even if i was capable of doing what he does, and i am probably not – i still wouldnt want to act like that. The price is too high. Even if all women were like that one in the video, and occasionally – pushed by a desire for company – i behaved like that, i would still despise myself, and them. Nothing on earth can convince me that this kind of behaviour is healthy, and if nature’s answer is “f*ck you anyway, guys like the greek will reproduce and you will not”…. well, too bad.
I dont consider myself a mgtow-er, i find them on the average to be full of anger and resentment, but i am deeply unsettled by the idea that the dating world is like that or will soon become like that in my country too (italian here, but i have a s.e.asia gf of 5 years). And i would sooner retreat to myself, that having to play a game that i find disgusting. The world can go on without me? Very well, please do, would be my answer.
P.Alessio,
“It seems clear to me you, author, deeply believes in it”
What does “believe in it” mean? Like you, I see that some men can use it to get sex. I’ve said many times that —
In this context, it meant “you seem to believe it works, and also that it is a necessity when dealing with women”. The second part is the one relevant for what i wrote.
P.Alessio,
Please re-read my reply to your first comment. I explained my view. Your second comment repeats what I said was not correct. I’ll explain again.
(1) “you seem to believe it works”
It is you that “deeply believes in Game.” You said “Game works. If you want to have hooksups with women, maybe even just have a long term relationship with one, you need it.” I strongly disagree with that statement. It works well for a few. It works to a small degree (incremental improvement) with most men. But no man “needs” it to have hooks or LTRs.
(2) “also that it is a necessity when dealing with women.”
I totally disagree with that statement.