Summary: An expert discusses men’s solutions to the gender wars – individualism, Game, and MGTOW. It is a follow-up to yesterday’s post, lifted from one of the best discussions ever among the 50,000+ comments on the FM website. He speaks about the experience of young men individually trying to cope with the gender revolution. Part one; part two goes up tomorrow.
Introduction
Enough analysis. This series is about solutions men are devising to the revolution in gender roles as the gender wars continue with no end in sight. My first two posts were about men as individuals finding their own solutions. Some learn Game to get casual sex. Some Men Go Their Own Way (MGTOW). Both feel good for a while. I doubt either will work for men or America over the long-term.
Here is the first of Dalrock’s reactions to those posts. He is a married man living with his wife and two kids in the Dallas/Fort Worth area. He uses his website to explore how the post-feminist world impacts him and his family. It is essential reading for anyone interested in these issues.
(1) Dalrock’s comment: Game’s utility for many young men
One thing I would encourage everyone to keep in mind about Game is that as a society we are obsessed with generating sexual attraction in women. We see this ability as the most pure test of goodness in a man. A woman’s feelings of sexual attraction are a mystical force, godlike for non-Christians, and God’s message for Christians. We can’t see how incredibly crass this is because we call it romantic love, but romantic love is far more intertwined with sexual desire than we are willing to admit. To truly seduce a woman is to make her fall in love with you.
Generating the tingle is an obsession with our society, and you can see it in our popular films. The Fifth Element
We believe that good things should happen to men who can generate the tingle. This is why we reserve our daughters’ most sexually attractive years as a reward for such men. Our greatest fear is that the woman might become confused and bestow her gift of sex on the wrong men. Hence the “True Love Tester” (see the video).
This is also why we need no fault divorce. What court in the land could overrule the woman’s holy vagina? If she no longer tingles for him, he deserves to be ejected from his children’s lives and have a more sexy man take his place. Think of the vitriol we heap on such men who dare to complain when this happens to them. They are the lowest of the low in our society, except perhaps for those most detestable men of all, the omegas who can’t attract a woman at all.
All of our sexual morality is directly anchored to the tingle. The #metoo movement doesn’t object to women trading sex to get ahead, it objects to the fact that in doing so such women are enticed into having sex with unsexy men!
Our society is obsessed with how to make women tingle. It is our most fundamental test for goodness in a man. Game teaches men how to be good (in our society’s view). I mention it because for nearly everyone their first response to reading about Game is to laugh at the men learning it for being obsessed with seduction.
Editor’s note.
See these posts by Dalrock for more info: If she has enough self esteem she won’t tingle for Harley McBadboy. and especially Why Game is a threat to our values (an expanded version of this comment).
My reply to Dalrock
I agree on all points. But that’s not the point of this series. As I said in the first chapter, “enough analysis!” What should men do in response to the evolution of gender roles? More accurately, the revolution in gender roles?
The first chapter said that a return to “traditional values” was not feasible. This post questions the effectiveness of Game and MGTOW, saying that for men they are useful short-term but probably ineffective or destructive long-term — and damaging to America. The third looks at social reforms, aka group or pack responses. Any thoughts?
(2) Dalrock’s comment: see men finding their own solutions
I think for the foreseeable future individual solutions are a man’s best bet, no matter how thin they are. Understanding reality will help men make better informed decisions.
Think of the Christian author I wrote about last week who married a woman who was repulsed at the thought of holding hands with him, and then was shocked that he had a 20 year sexless marriage that ended with her cheating on him. It may seem trivial, but teaching men about the mechanics of attraction helps a lot compared with teaching them lies.
Men should be clear about marriage and sexual morality. The most common view (including from men) is that if a wife becomes unhappy she must be permitted to divorce, and her ex-husband must provide moral cover for her immorality. If a man isn’t perfectly clear that this is wrong he shouldn’t marry. Also, teaching your children this reality from an early age will at least put a damper on her temptation to try to live out the Eat Pray Love dream.
Social reform is an interesting topic, and I very much look forward to your upcoming posts.
Editor’s note.
Eat, Pray, Love: One Woman’s Search for Everything Across Italy, India and Indonesia
Aimee Levitt described it as written in the “voice of a person who knows she is better than you are, but is trying really hard not to let it show because that might hurt your feelings.” The women reviewers loved it beyond the ability of words to express. Also impossible to describe is her gushy NYT profile. Although it is beyond parody, Andrew Gottlieb tried in Drink, Play, F@k: One Man’s Search for Anything Across Ireland, Las Vegas, and Thailand
The Daily Mail ran a story about the 10-year anniversary of this epochal story, with examples of women who followed in Gilbert’s footsteps. Oddly, they did not manage step #3: marry a rich hunk (as Julia Roberts does in the film). The others in the article are still single. But then, neither did Gilbert. Her second husband was 17 years older than her, balding, and shorter (a major factor for most women). But he was rich!
Update from Dalrock in the comments. I am still too naive. Of course these awesome feminist empowerment stories are often fake.
“Even the rich part seems to have been fiction. From what I’ve read, it sounds like he sold his cottage in Bali to move in with her, and then she bankrolled a small shop for him to run with the earnings from the book/movie. In one interview they describe him calling her for permission to buy something for the shop, and she says he doesn’t need permission.
“The truly hilarious part is that like the other blockbuster book/movie about a divorcee finding an exotic hunk overseas, he married her because he needed a visa. The other divorce fantasy book/movie I’m referring to is How Stella Got Her Groove Back
My reply
I agree. An effective group response will take years to take hold. By “group response” I mean those that occur by collective action by groups — tribes, packs, etc. They need not change society, or even be beneficial for society. For example, Christianity in the Roman Empire was a group response to its problems. Gibbon said “the introduction, or at least the abuse of Christianity” was a major contribution to its fall.
As for ending the gender wars, rebuilding the system (in whatever form) will take many years – or decades, or generations, or forever (i.e., it might prove impossible in our current system). Each of us must live in the present. We cannot wait for some future Great Day When good stuff happens.
But I strongly believe (guessing) that neither Game nor MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way) will work over the long-term for most men. I believe discussing this is the most important subject for the “manosphere.” Now most of its leaders are selling solutions that for most men will prove to be somewhere between “snake oil” (ineffective) and coke (fun but self-destructive).
(3) Dalrock’s comment: see MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way)
One thing that I think is a misconception is the idea that we are seeing a “marriage strike”. What I think we are seeing instead is a breakdown of incentives due to the ever increasing delay of marriage (and the pre-marriage girlfriend). I don’t think men are on strike, or (for the most part) consciously going their own way. Instead, as we have reworked the incentives for men, the culture of young men has drifted away from the old order. I think nearly all of them would still very much like to marry the washed out party girls who are complaining about a lack of good men.
The problem is these men can’t go back and focus their teens and 20s on education and hard work any more than the women can go back and devote their most fertile years to marriage. The coin is already spent. So you can’t bargain with men to win them over, because (for the most part) they never really were on strike.
I’m not saying the men you encounter who identify as MGTOW aren’t sincere (although not all are). I’m saying when we look at the stats and see an ever increasing group of men working enough to support themselves and devoting their remaining energy to hobbies –Tinder, online porn, video games, pot, etc. – this isn’t coming from a deliberate intent to “strike”.
My reply
That nails it. The key drivers include not just the delay of marriage until the late 20s, but change in the rules governing marriage. The incentives for men to marry have broken down. They were patriarchy; their destruction has been a public policy goal for five decades.
Now many women sensibly exploit the rules to get the party-of-her-life, marriage, and children – followed by divorce, division of community property, receipt of child support, and independence (vivid details here). It works for lower class guys who have little property to divide (especially if they can escape into the cash economy). It works for the rich, where prenuptials are effective and child-support is a trivial expense. Marriage is a risk for middle class men, and increasing numbers refuse to play.
See feminists explaining the importance of marrying with the awareness that divorce is always an option. Doublethink (from 1984) is an essential skill in the new era of marriage!
Tomorrow: Dalrock discusses how women reply to men’s counter-strike in the gender wars.
See the other posts in this series
- A return to traditional values.
- Men finding individual solutions.
- Part 1 – An expert discusses individual solutions.
- Part 2 – Discussing women’s responses to men’s solutions.
- Part 3 – An expert looks into the future and sees wonders ahead.
- Part 4 – An expert: respect is a key battleground in the gender wars.
- Part 5 – An expert’s insight: Game is toxic to feminism.
- Part 5 – Rebuilding men’s self-respect is a solution to the gender wars.
- A counter-revolution in society.
For More Information
Ideas! For shopping ideas, see my recommended books and films at Amazon.
If you liked this post, like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter. See all posts about society and gender issues, about feminism, about marriage, and especially these…
- Taylor Swift shows us love in the 21st century.
- A new hot trend from Hollywood: women hitting men.
- Recommendation: nine of the best American romantic films.
- A brief guide to the new war of the sexes. Both sides are 100% right — Music videos are a mirror to our new society.
- Modern movies show the hidden truth about romance & marriage: they’re dying.
- Disturbing next steps in the gender revolution, seen in films and on TV.
- Classic films show what marriage was. Facts show its death.
Some great books that can help us understand our situation
Sex in History
Survival of the Prettiest: The Science of Beauty
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FM,
Again, this is the question. Both the immediate “what do we as individual men do? and What do we advise our sons and grandsons” and the “how should society be restructured?”
Getting a “this is a problem” is like Doctor saying “you have this disease” GREAT! now what how do we treat it. I know I’m sick, I know I can’t get well by becoming a child again, how do I treat what I have?
And it is funny I’ve read some blogs of a PUA who now want to settle down and they are so jaded that they can’t find a woman. No one measures up. Yup there are no born unicorns. I think a man may help mold a woman towards that, although them exisiting or not is still up for debate. But the point remains even for a PUA, he still wants a family and has decided he’d like to stop playing if he can.
And we are at the bottom of a legal pit. There are things I see going on that men as a whole suffer from but have no coherent response to because of a desire to not be on the receiving end of the legal system. This is part of the problem of acting in a solo fashion.
There is also the issue of what we are trying to build. Clearly a society that protects men in marriage as much as it protects women. A society that has a return to reinforcing one of marraiges classic values. “Until death do we part.” Or maybe that isn’t the goal of many men, and just my personal goal. IDK, I realize I’m expressing fustration on this on the whole. Again. I’m tried of being told I’m sick (yeah I know!) I am looking for a cure.
ACT,
“Both the immediate “what do we as individual men do? and What do we advise our sons and grandsons” and the “how should society be restructured?””
The first post in this series discussed individual solutions. These two posts (this is part 1) give Dalrock’s thoughts on that subject.
The last post in the series discusses group responses.
These are, of course, just sketches. The adequacy of individual responses is too seldom discussed. Group responses are seldom discussed. Perhaps this series will give a “nudge” (trendy term!) to both.
ACT, you are totally missing the point here. Society HAS been restructured to create the disaster we have today: low wages, bad trade deals, dying middle class, America losing its status, and the gender wars. The problem is that the Globalist Left and the FemiNazis did all the re-structuring uninterrupted, while Conservative men sat idly by and let it happen. The Baby Boomers clearly are the generation that ruined America, but now, they have raised an even worse generation: the Millennials.
To re-structure our society it takes a crash and reset trigger. There is a movie I highly recommend called “Generation Zero” and the premise is the economic cycles that trigger major world events.
For example, think about the 1920s when we had Conservatives in power in USA and we created the Roaring 20’s, with almost zero immigration, low taxes, and tariffs. America entered a Golden Age of prosperity. As soon as Coolidge left and the Progressives took over again (Hoover), the system went haywire and the economy collapsed (Great Depression) and the Progressives kept that nightmare owing for a decade with their policies. That reset button set off WWII and after the War, we reset the system and had another Golden Age until the Boomer came of age and ruined it again in 1970s.
That just happened again, starting with 9/11, the trigger process began. It reached the peak during Bush’s disastrous 2nd term and Obummer’s economic and global crisis nightmare for whole 8 years. A whole generation of Americans, many with college degrees and massive loans and working as a Barista at Starbucks for minimum wage. Never ending wars, doubling the National Debt, and an opioid crisis in heartland, due to exportation of jobs and no hope (economic genocide).
The issue is we need a TRIGGER to set the reset. WWII was the trigger during Great Depression. The trigger will be some kind of economic crisis, national debt crisis, currency collapse, student loan debt bubble burst, or a major war, and it WILL reset this whole FemiNazi fantasy that we see today.
Regardless of the relationship issues, the current system is unsustainable as it is today. Feminism can only exist in rich countries with a robust welfare system paid for by men. 90% of welfare go to women. 90%!! Women have all the rights and men have all the obligations. Men are crucified in Family Court, are unfairly jailed for “crimes”, and have everything taken from them. This is why so many young Millennial men are “going Galt” and are dropping out of school and focusing on video games and avoiding women completely. They have HD porn free online and a hooker here and there on the side. They have video games, the parent’s basement, and they get by. Why bother to work slave hours to finance some woman’s lifestyle?
Women in America are miserable and unhappy. 1 in 4 are “functioning alcoholics” and 1 in 5 are on antidepressants, to “make them happy”, not because they are clinically depressed. In UK, where Feminism is even more advanced than in USA, they are doing surveys and the women there are miserable, and unlike the 1 in 5 American pill-popping women, the British feminists are living largely without antidepressants.
Simply put, it is irrelevant whether women and men get along or not. This system we have today is not going to continue. It will reset. And it will be ugly. Dating and marriage issues will be the least of your concerns.
Larry:
I agree with you, most men and women are losers. That is definitely the case in most of the world. What ACT is is misunderstanding is not that PUA is not working out or whatever. PUA and MGTOW are symptoms of the problem, not the solution. The core problems in Western world is that incentives are gone to do the right thing, so to speak. In Norway, 1/3 of working age men do not work, and are on welfare. Why? As o$1,000 USD (about 7,000 Kroner) a month in cash welfare (plus housing assistant, etc). By working FT at 7-Eleven, after taxes he gets $1,400 (~9,600 kroner). Given the two options, which is easier? Yes, my friend is single, no GF, he goes to Amsterdam every so often to get some P4P, and lives in a small apartment in Bergen. He has not worked in 8 years, will be 9 years in 2018. He plays video games all day, and drinks beer. Definitely a loser by MY standards, but can you blame him in such an insane Feminist hell that is Scandinavian socialism?
But what made America different was incentives to work! The lack of welfare is an obvious incentive to work, but it goes beyond that. In the past, you had religion (moral), marriage (stability), and families (honor) as a stabilizers, along with decent-paying jobs and industries that have now largely vanished (or are being held up by the policies and determination of our current President).
The Feminists removed the core incentives for men to work hard and be productive. Men HAD to work to be able to afford a wife (access to sex), a family (kids, which carry his legacy), and religion (moral compass, to do right thing). The last 50 years have created a situation where even Christian churches driving men AWAY in record pace by enforcing a twisted version of “Christian Feminism” (just read Dalrock on that last point). Men have unlimited access to unmarried sex, even if he has to get by with a fugly girl on Tinder sometimes. Having a family is not honored or valued in America today, if anything, marriage and kids are a massive expense and legal liability for men. Religion is under attack 24/7 by lawsuits and under threat by lawyers. Try talking to some co-worked about your faith and see how quickly you are fired after he/she complains to HR.
Simply put, modern American men have nothing to work for.
This is why the current US economy is in such turmoil and has to get “booster shots” to keep going. By nature, men are minimalists and are willing to do as little as possible to get by and have some savings for the future. USA economy is basically 2/3 consumption based. Women are the ones that do at least 80% of all spending in married households. If over 70% of men between ages 20-34 are “never married”, how can we mass produce “stay at home moms” who go to the mall and spend while kids are in school?
This is why we see malls crumbling, Toys ‘R Us is shutting down completely (not even trying to sell, they are closing, period), and even women-focused stores are in trouble (even Payless shoes, when American women are addicted to shoes!). The women simply do not produce enough money to keep their own consumption going. Add the last 10 years of economic recession, college loan debt, wage stagnation, and men walking away from the legal trap/fraud known as Marriage 2.0, and you can see why we have this economic situation today. Trump has simply borrowed us time to see if we can figure out a solution to the Feminist problem. If not, not even he can keep this mess going much longer.
We need to return INCENTIVES for men to want to work and want to succeed, or the whole Feminist experience to will collapse of its own weight and system will reset. It will be ugly, so gear up.
So I’m away for a while, and I come back to find the best discussion that the FM web site has ignited to date.
A few thoughts. First, I agree that Game and MGTOW are not viable long term solutions. It’s a bit like the days before they could plot longitude, and mariners would sometimes follow a parallel of latitude hoping they’d eventually get where they were going. Not ideal, but if you haven’t invented the chronometer yet, it’s what you’ve got.
So where do we go for a chronometer? I’m afraid I can’t find it in myself to be the least bit optimistic about this. A society that can’t raise a generation of marriageable young women to be wives to its young men will eventually be replaced by one that can. What form that might take I can’t say. (My Ouija board got lost in transit somewhere) But the changes in the marriage and sexual marketplaces produced winners and losers, and the winners have both the vote and, for the moment, control of the culture. You won’t claw their winnings back easily, even if what they won hasn’t done many of them a lot of actual long term good. Gollum had a big old smile on his face grasping the Precious on the way down into that volcano.
Having spent some time on various Red and Blue pilled web sites (Including Dalrock’s, which I have a very high opinion of) I’ve come to the conclusion that there are people both ends of that particular spectrum offering advice that they themselves do not believe. (For the record, I do NOT include Larry. or Dalrock on that list) I agree with Larry that the number of guys who will ever have a lot of success with Game is limited, and that a good percentage of the online success stories are fake. It’s a bit like the old magazine ads that George Carlin used to make fun of for the thing that “Gets out blackheads with vacuum.” And to quite Carlin “You knew it worked because there was a drawing of a girl with dots on her face, and then there was a drawing of the same girl without the dots.” There’s a quote somewhere about a cause starting as a movement, becoming a business, and degenerating into a racket. Game is now well into its racket phase.
I expect to see a variety of public policy prescriptions put forward once its clear that cash flow is being affected. These are likely to include a bachelor tax (Which won’t be called that), more immigration, and perhaps punitive taxation on industries such as media that employ large numbers of women. (That last almost certainly won’t be adopted) Whether this constitutes panic, creeping or otherwise, I do not know. I doubt any of it will work.
Solutions seem possible only on a time scale longer than I fear this society has. All the family I have left at this point is my nephew. He’ll be 22 next month. I worry about him, and advise him as best I can.
The Man,
(1) “A society that can’t raise a generation of marriageable young women to be wives”
It’s way too early to say that about America. We’re in the early days of this problem, and already responses are appearing.
(2) “the marriage and sexual marketplaces produced winners and losers, and the winners have both the vote and, for the moment, control of the culture.”
I strongly disagree. Most men and women are losers. But recognition and reaction take time.
(3) “a variety of public policy prescriptions put forward once its clear that cash flow is being affected.”
I agree that effective solutions occur at the group level. But first, there is a level between individuals and government solutions. Second, I doubt any of those policy measures you mention are likely.
(4) “Solutions seem possible only on a time scale longer than I fear this society has.”
That is imo the single most common mistake people make when forecasting social trends: the assumption that the world is fragile (US society, the biosphere, etc). That’s the core assumption of the doomsters’ creed. It’s quite false.
Can anyone explain this, about The Fifth Element?
I saw the film, but don’t understand what Dalrock means by this.
The Fifth Element was love for a woman that had caused Bruce Willis’ character nothing but grief. Putting her on both a literal & metaphorical pedestal saved humanity.
Gunner,
I saw the film and didn’t pick that up. Thank you for the explanation!
Agreed.
Very interesting take here on the key themes of The Fiith Element film: http://www.gradesaver.com/the-fifth-element/study-guide/themes
“Love
The final scenes of the story show that love is the only thing pure enough to overcome any evil, no matter how powerful it might be. The fifth element symbolizes this feeling, the element which along with nature rules the world. Korben finally has found what he lacked so much – love, perfect love, as Leeloo is nothing but perfection.”
Emphasis: “Leeloo is nothing but perfection.”
A men realizes he has a huge hole in his soul. But what in the world could possibly fill it and make him whole again?
A oneitis, of course. A perfect female with no flaws. A Mary Sue.
And that just goes to show you men a version of how love conquers all.
She is so much better than you. If only you would get it through your thick skulls and accept it.
“The Fifth Element was love for a woman that had caused Bruce Willis’ character nothing but grief.”
See Kipling’s poem “The Vampire” for details. Opening:
Hugh,
Wow. Thank you for that apt but dark literary reference! I added the first paragraph of the poem to your comment.
I consider game an effective long-term tool or tactic for men regardless of whether they are mgtow or not, or whether they eventually marry or not.
Game is very important for men, but on its own it is not a be all or end all solution.
I could be wrong, but I also don’t know who is insisting that it ever was.
Game works, but you need to work at it. And a lot of men out there are fatigued or indifferent, and just won’t work at it.
In my experience, having some game skills can positively affect interpersonal relationships and well-being – at work, with family, girlfriends, etc. At times, when applied well, it is just as they say – like dynamite.
As for the short-term vs. long-term efficacy of Mgtow, it is interesting to me how no other long-term solutions to the multitude or problems from gender role re-assignments and the sexual revolution have presented themselves.
Sometimes I think that the expectation is once again for men to come in and “fix the problem” and just “clean up this mess” once more because we know women are like overgrown children and refuse to do it, and will throw kicking tantrums once men start anyway.
I would say that men allowed and enabled the current feminist dominated landscape. The decisions made by women perpetuated policy, attitudes and ingratitude to such a degree that trust, love and goodwill cannot flourish.
The field is now too sour. Too acidic to bear any fruit.
Maybe there is no solution.
Maybe it is too late.
Maybe we need to finally lie in the beds that we made and allow failure to commence. There was a previous comment about Generation Z. Our generation had its chance and we effed it up. Maybe these new guys will have the self-control and healthy intolerance to learn from our stupid mistakes.
Constrained: it is lack of incentives for men to succeed or even care about learning Game. Why bother? Incentives is what we need to change to get American men re-engage to succeed in life, and hopefully continue to organize to fight the Feminists.
I know many non-gay guys who are good looking, fit, and from upper middle class families that much rather play video games and smoke weed (or drink booze and chill) then sleep with a girl. They consider having a woman in their life a massive burden, expensive, and a waste of time. They have little patience to deal with girls and even too short of an attention span to talk to them. They watch plenty of HD-quality porn all the time, to the point any real women feel disappointing to them (I have heard 3 guys tell me this, including my younger cousin who is 24 and a solid 8.5 appearance). While this may seem like a bad trend to have Millenials dismiss women, it is actually a very good thing, because it helps reduce options for women, who despite their feminist poisoning, are much more focused on relationships and even marriage later on after they hit The Wall. (This is a form of MGTOW, even if not on consciously).
One of my friends allowed his brother-in-law to come to his apartment with his girlfriend (thinking he will be happy to use a free apt to be alone with the girl). But nope… he called his other Millennial friends and when my friend got back to his apt at 1:00am with his wife, the girl was sitting on couch angry messing with phone and the guys were playing xBox360 and drinking his beer. Most Millennials men I know today are like that. They think learning Game or even dating a girl is too much work. They are so busy with social media, TV, video games, movies, and drugs to care about women. (We can add the low test level for Millennial “men” to the mix, but that is topic for another day). They have too many distractions to add a woman, a massive time-suck and distraction, to their lives.
MGTOW is not a solution per se, but it will help bring about a reset to the problem, which is Marxist-feminism. MGTOW is helping by largely removing Beta providers who have allowed Feminism to become the problem that it is today, from marriage market. The more men opt-out of marriage for women post-Wall, the quicker the system will reset eventually. MGTOW is more of a symptom of the disease of feminism, then a cure, but a symptom that will ultimately help bring about the reset we need.
Game, on the other hand is not a solution at all! Game is a TOOL to improve your chances with women and to keep relationships (including marriage) going strong. Dread Game, for example, is incredibly effective, for instance, in restoring balance in relationship, for example (https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2008/03/27/dread/). Think of different aspects of Game as the Swiss knife tool or as a multi-use wrench that you can use to also change spark plus in a car to keep it running along with fixing your sink and other problems (metaphorically, to keep your marriage/relationship working).
Yes, it will not be easy to fix this mess that we find ourselves in. The Boomers handed us a mess, a big one. But I am not yet ready to take the Black Pill. America is still a great country and Feminism here is not nearly as entrenched and institutionalized as in Western Europe. We have a much larger middle class, much broader religious population, and much more conservative media (i.e Fox, Breitbart, etc) then Europe.
A few months ago, we watched in horror a million barbarians migrants invading Western Europe, raping, stealing, and pillaging, as their Globalist leaders egged them on (i.e. Merkel of Germany). We thought Western Europe was a collapsing civilization in its last breaths. Then Austria elected a “radical right-winger”, shocking everyone. Poland, Czech Republic, Romania, and Hungary all built walls and refused to take any of the Rapefugees. Then as the Coliseum was being used a public toilet by African and Middle Eastern Rapefugees, the people of Italy surprised everyone and rebelled. Two weeks ago, the far right and center-right parties won 75% of national vote in Italy, promising at least 600,000 deportations, removing Italy from Euro currency, and closing the Borders completely.
If there is hope for decadent Feminist societies of Western Europe, there is DEFINITELY hope for America. :)
The idea that game/mgtow does not address the long term problem or somehow runs aground over time is an erroneaous extrapolation and misinterpretation of game.
If the solution for individual men is finding thier individual solutions and game is the best toolkit availavle to them, why would this approach fail over time?
Goals, problems, solutions all change over time for each man. How he employs game will also change. Those are the strengths of game: individuation and adaptability.
The long term solution notion feels to me like the projection of traditional values onto individual men.
Ie his individual solutions must revert to the mean traditional values (which are “good” for America) or else game is bad in the long run.
Or, the success of individual men via game is measured by the successful restoration or conservation of these traditional values at-large.
It also seems hung-up on game as PUA. As if men plowing thru Tinder via game is the only stage/gear/goal/outcome – and that men will not evolve/progress according to their unique objectives over time.
True, many will not. But this is not a failure of “game” to provide that toolkit over time. I game my first date just as i will game my wife, should i choose that route.
The truth of game does not erode over time. A mans actions might. But then again the failure over time to solve toward “x” may not be giving credit to the accretive value of a mans previous successes via game.
Game is like nutrition and exercise science in a culture that claims fast food is righteous progress.
The short and long term soltion for an obese man is game. Assuming he does the work. He may desire to lose 10lbs or become a body buillder. Game accommodates.
How do we define the value of game telative to his long term outcome without knowing his individual goals? The long term problem of obesity is not his problem nor is it the purview of game.
Game exists because traditional values were abandoned in favor of progressive values – except for those traditions that hold men accountable for provisioning and sacrifice of course.
I think its looking thru the wrong end of the telescope. The actual long-term problem is that “America” and the system or whatever we call our culture, is bad for men. Hence game. Hence the need for men to redpill out of that system and carve out thier sovereignty on thier terms.
The point of game is not to teach men some static solutions to his problems, nor is it to aggregate these individual solutions over time into a top-down group empowermemt that will ultimately “fix” the system. Thats the “mens rights” movement. Good luck to them with that.
Game is a tool kit to help a man incrementally work toward his unique goals within a system that does not want him to have that power at all.
Game is more about learning skills of adaptation as opposed to memorizing some matrix of solutions to problems.
It is organic and dynamic, an open source learning program. A man learns skills to adapt just as Game itself is intrinsically adaptive. The market changes, so does game, so does man.
A man has goals, long and short. Game helps him progress with those in mind.
But to say game is not a long term solution presumes that the individual goals of men are based on the old world ideals; eg that men are trying to find marriage 1.0 in a culture that is decidedly onto marriage 3.0.
It is a projection of a cultural ideal onto a highly individuated system for men to survive and hopefully thrive within the actual system that exists today. Not how “we” think it should be today or in the future.
In fact the red pill requires a man to dispell much of that idealism.
The very concept of the red pill means that a man is ejecting from the matrix, the system.
In doing so he is rightly not concerned with fixing that system (desiring the world to be different) or working to become a better (beta) battery to power it, but instead he is learning how to operate within it (desiring himself to be better) based on the incremental integration of natural/observable “law” and subsequent actionable tactics into the absurd, chaotic, and false blue pill system he finds himself within.
This long/short problem may be la tactics/strategy issue. But it seems like a desire for restoration based on the presumption that the system is broken.
But the system is working by design. Progress is the highest virtue of our nation/culture, just as promiscuity (female sexual choice) is the highest virtue in the sexual market. This has already been decided.
The idea of a long-term solution is an interesting part of the overal discussion but it seems to imply that there is some fix to the system waiting for some group to seize upon it.
The system is not flawed, it is operating as intended. A solution, if one can even be defined, will come just as the problem has: as an unintended consequence of individual men making choices over time that reflect what they ultinately value.
Sorry so long. Geeze.
Most men will never master game. It is not even concisely defined now.
The problem is that society has been undermined and few realize that. It will take a major shock to change things, a time that is likely to be very unpleasant to go through.
I am more pessimistic than the OP author, but perhaps that is a sign of my time on this earth and going through the dissolution of my own long term marriage so my exwife could be single again.
My case would need to be countered by any solution, at least in general if not in specific, but I don’t see that happening anytime soon even in circles that are supposedly completely against divorce.
I think there’s one individual approach that might’ve been overlooked – which is to leave the US altogether.
It’s perhaps not as feasible as going your own way of learning game, but I do know a few people who have found much more success in Latin America or the Eastern Europe/Russia.
The other related approach seems to be marrying a foreign woman. Amusingly enough, my UBER driver told me he couldn’t deal with American women and ended up marrying a Puerto Rican woman.
Not sure what percentage of men are going this route, compared to game/MGTOW. I imagine it’s a lot harder to ingratiate yourself in a different culture and leave everything behind.
Vyasa,
(1) “I think there’s one individual approach that might’ve been overlooked – which is to leave the US altogether.”
Remember the subject of this series: “about three solutions that are seldom discussed.” It is not an analysis of every possible solution. I do not consider abandoning my nation as an acceptable solution.
(2) “The other related approach seems to be marrying a foreign woman.”
That is a solution. Since there is a vast literature discussing it, I won’t do so here. I’m sure there is data on the number of men taking this path. I’d like to see the level and trend.
Leaving the US is not practical for most men. And it brings a whole bunch of other problems that are rarely mentioned. No guarantee the target destination will remain good for a lifetime either.
BillyS,
I agree on all points. But those are operational considerations. I reject abandoning my nation on moral grounds. America has survived due to its men’s willingness to fight for it. I’ll not abandon it for trivial reasons when previous generations fought far greater dangers.
Vyasa:
1) Being sick and tired of American and marrying a Puerto Rican woman is like trading measles for pneumonia. That is actually an insane trade-off. Latina women have absolutely horrid tempers, are leftist-minded, and besides the mild effects of Catholicism, they are terrible wives and terrible girlfriends. Puerto Rican women are so morally-repugnant they would raise eyebrows in the court of Caligula. I am from Central Florida, home of the 2nd largest Puerto Rican community in America and I have 1st hand experience with Boricuas. I have also lived in Brazil (4 years), southern Spain (1.5 years) and 6 months in Argentina.
If you are trading American women for a foreign woman, you should at least pick a woman from a very Conservative country, like Lithuania, Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, Philippines, etc. Marrying an Italian, Brazilian, Swedish, Danish, Venezuelan, Cuban, or God-forbid a Puerto Rican woman is just insane. These countries are radical Feminist hellholes and the women are hardliner Marxists (ALL leftist movements in world history were propelled and supported by women). Latin women all think government is the answer to everything and that the government should always do more and get more involved. -_- How do you think a Communist Dilma Russell was elected Presidenta of Brazil? How do you think Venezuela became a Communist dictatorship so easily? How do you think a buffoon like Macrom won in France or Trudeau in Canada (total idiots, but are good looking guys) won? How do you think Hillary almost won presidency?? Women voters!
2) Marriage to ANY woman, regardless of country opens you up for the same legal ramifications as marriage to an American woman. You can get a Prenup, but that is a false sense of security. If the Prenup is not executed insanely well, the Prenup will be dismissed by your future Family Judge. If executed perfectly, can still be dismissed by Family Law judge, on a whim. The whole Family Court system is rigged against men, the nationality of wife is irrelevant.
3) It is simply NOT feasible for most men to move overseas for the purpose of being with a good woman. People with specialized jobs, such as lawyers, for examples, are basically worthless in a foreign country. Living abroad is NOT easy coming from America. You have to bribe cops regularly, the water makes you sick (cannot even brush teeth using tap water), many countries are crazy expensive (like Brazil, for instance), and the economies in these countries create unstable social situations (riots, high crime, political instability).
4) The solution (for now) may be a blended system where you do NOT marry any woman (period), date them, even have a kid with them, but do not live together and do not get married. It is a never-ending LTR, a forever engagement situation of sorts. This is not ideal, but it is a “stopgap” solution for our current mess. Yes, you can still be sued for child support later on, BUT if the woman was going to leave anyway, you just saved yourself from a hellish divorce, kept your home, retirement, and freedom from a false criminal accusation (to force you out of your home, called “opening chess move” in any divorce). You probably can handle the cost of child support, but you probably cannot handle losing your home, having an arrest record, losing you job due to being in-and-out of jail due to Family Court, and paying Alimony and child support at same time.
I know this is not great solution, but it is an idea. And with over 70% of men 20-34 never being married before having kids this way, it may become socially acceptable to do so. It may be men’s temporary fix for the marriage/divorce court hell we have in America today. Thoughts??
Pingback: A primer on men’s reactions to the gender war. | Dalrock
Even the rich part seems to have been fiction. From what I’ve read, it sounds like he sold his cottage in Bali to move in with her, and then she bankrolled a small shop for him to run with the earnings from the book/movie. In one interview they describe him calling her for permission to buy something for the shop, and she says he doesn’t need permission.
The truly hilarious part is that like the other blockbuster book/movie about a divorcee finding an exotic hunk overseas, he married her because he needed a visa. The other divorce fantasy book/movie I’m referring to is How Stella Got Her Groove Back. In the movie a hot young stud swept the divorcee off her feet. In reality Stella’s exotic new man was not a stud but instead quite visibly gay, and according to her allegations only married her for her money and to obtain a visa.
“Epilogue for ‘Stella’ author: a messy divorce”
Dalrock,
I’ll add a link in the post to your comment.
I’m surprised. But I should not be. The extreme feminist project (I don’t have a good label for it) is ungrounded, so naturally enough its wonderful stories are fake.
The ‘sphere’ is still struggling with the “solution” or “correct response” or whatever. I’m glad to see that we’re at a point where people recognize that “enough analysis” has been done, notwithstanding sites like Rollo’s or Heartiste who continue to endlessly define the problem.
@Gaza/Geeze properly assesses the situation (long winded as it is), that the system IS WORKING AS DESIGNED. So this really means there is no active “solution”. There is nothing we can do, no organizing, no red-pilling, no ‘woking’ or getting more based. Nothing. As pointed out, Game and MGTOW are only of limited and personal value.
As I have posted and very few seem to acknowledge (maybe Roosh?), that the root cause is the massive overabundance of reproductive aged males to females (16-60yr males/16-30yr females). This results in unrestricted hypergamy, with the concomitant male response by thirsty desperate white knights and betas doing everything they can to secure the scarce holy vagina (actually the viable eggs) scraps.
So the problem will go on and on and evolve depending on how willing men are to support women’s increasing demands (for the highest-value sperm) and support national infrastructure which keeps society afloat.
The only solution is for the excess ratio of males/females to go away, and for this to happen many millions of men will have to die. The “solution” in my eyes is to prepare for this eventuality and try to be the one of those who survive the genocide.
Burner,
(1) “The ‘sphere’ is still struggling with the “solution” or “correct response” or whatever.”
Yes. But we’re still early in the process. Men’s response to feminism began with a solution emerging on the Street (as usual with men): Game. MGTOW came next. But now is the time to look at the adequacy of those first cuts at solutions, seek better ones both for men and for America.
(2) “That the system IS WORKING AS DESIGNED.”
Nobody designs social systems. They evolve as the result of thousands of pressures. New tech (eg, the pill). Economic forces (eg, devaluing physical work, increasing office work). Social change (eg, geo mobility weakening family ties – and family authority). Evolving ideologies (eg, feminism as a combination of left wing identity politics and right-wing libertarianism). And many more.
(3) “that the root cause is the massive overabundance of reproductive aged males to females”
I think that is a gross oversimplification of the situation. Probably the single greatest factor imo is cheap effective contraception for women. But these are all guesses. We’re trying to imagine what a hurricane – while in the midst of one, when we’ve never seen nor heard of one before.
” I think nearly all of them would still very much like to marry the washed out party girls who are complaining about a lack of good men.”
I think you are profoundly out of touch with the sentiments of most bachelors. There are a lot of washed-up MGTOWs who get lonely around 40 and decide to marry, but they marry economically disadvantaged women younger than 25. The 40-year-old men are not longing for 40-year-old women, they are longing for non-feminist women – who are coincidentally half their age.
Gaiko,
(1) “I think you are profoundly out of touch with the sentiments of most bachelors”
Let’s take a look at your claims to see who is better in touch. I’d like to see data supporting your claims, which seem improbable.
(2) “There are a lot of washed-up MGTOWs who get lonely around 40 and decide to marry”
Census data shows that only 20% of men 40-44 are never married. A big chunk of those are gay, chronically ill, disabled (physically, mentally, or with addictions), criminals, or socially dysfunctional.
(3) “they marry economically disadvantaged women younger than 25.”
First, for most men “economically disadvantaged” is not an important consideration when evaluating a young woman. Second, at 15-20 year gap between bride and groom is common for stars and rich men – but rare for average guys. Women 18-25 are in their peak years in terms of physical attractiveness. How “washed up” can those post-40 men be to marry young women, most of whom have so many options?
(4) “The 40-year-old men are not longing for 40-year-old women”
Middle aged guys are not the subject of this post. See the summary: “He speaks about the experience of young men individually trying to cope with the gender revolution.” See the first header. “Why Game has become useful for so many young men.” See the sentence before the one you quote.
If I am reading the chart right, the number of never-married adults in the 18-64 age group rose from 26 percent in 1990 to 36 percent in 2016.
Source:
https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-state-of-our-unions-marriage-up-among-older-americans-down-among-the-younger
Regarding the relevance of the 40-year-olds – I initially misunderstood the main post. You were intending to say that 25-year-old MGTOWs want the 25-year-old party girls, I think. If that was your point, I misunderstood. Sorry.
Gaiko,
(1) That’s a popular number to look at, but tells us little. The number of never-married people 18-64 has risen, that’s heavily influenced by the delay of marriage. That is, the number of unmarried in the 23-30 age has increased. Also, the average age of society has increased. For more useful perspective, see this Pew Research graph looking at the percent never married by age cohort.
(2) “You were intending to say that 25-year-old MGTOWs want the 25-year-old party girls”
That’s not what he said. Let’s look at the quote.
First, few women are “washed out party girls” at 25. That’s usually used for women 35 and older (after they “hit the wall”). Second, women are delaying marriage, so there are few 25-year old women “complaining about a lack of good men.” Look at the quotes in this post. That is mostly said by women in the late 30s and older.
@constrainedlocus @Burner;
Sex ratios (2010 census estimate for the U.S.):
at birth: 1.048 male(s)/female
under 15 years: 1.04 male(s)/female
15–64 years: 1 male(s)/female
65 years and over: 0.75 male(s)/female
total population: 0.97 male(s)/female
It’s not just females versus males. Females also have a material percentage of males (white knights, beta cucks, Democrats, misinformed tradcon Christians/Catholics, etc…) aligned with them.
I don’t see how we can “come in and ‘fix the problem,'” politically speaking with respect to the rule of law, with a much larger voting population set against it ever being fixed; even determined to make it much worse.
America,
As always, social systems defy such simple analysis. For an easy example, look at voting by party by gender for Hillary vs. Donald. That’s an extreme illustration, since Hillary campaigned as the women’s candidate and Donald was explicitly misogynist. And still the voting was not men vs. women.
Another example — Islam is by our standards explicitly misogynist. Yet it is getting many women converts in Europe.
There are tides in people’s dreams, which can be harnessed.
@American, those ratios are not the ones I’m talking about. Ratio is *reproductive aged* males/females. As I said, 16-60yr old males / 16-30yr old females. That’s where the rubber meets the road. The other ratios don’t matter as far as hypergamy goes, esp. the 0-15 and 65+.
@ Larry, not talking about any man-made design. The “system” is the system of nature designed by God or evolution, take your pick. ‘Evolved’ as you say. The natural order is working as intended and as it evolved to optimize human selection for survival (male and female mating strategies). Any other pressures you mention are subordinate or necessarily must complement it (or that society wouldn’t survive). Hypergamy is an optimizing survival strategy built into women’s genetic code and those other factors can only either enhance or dampen those drives. It has been curtailed (kept in check) for all of history due to lack of female agency, and by intense social pressures designed to maintain group cohesion over an individual woman’s personal reproductive optimization. Those constraints have been removed. They will be reinstated when the agency goes away (fewer men able to support single mom’s and electric power stations). Credit goes to Roosh & Rollo for much of the groundwork here.
AFA contraception, again I think that’s subordinate to agency.
Mr. Kummer:
Yes, as insane as some women converting to Islam in a morally decadent feminist place like Western Europe sure is confusing. But it is not hard to explain.
Islam, as misogynistic and patriarchal as it is, provides strong moral clarity, rules, and endless lists of allowed and forbidden foods/practices/etc. Islam has death penalty for homosexuality, un-changeable and non-negotiable principles, and a patriarchal system of marriage that works (in the sense that divorce and adultery carry severe punishments).
Feminists can deny it all they want, all day long, but the truth is that women want to be dominated by a masculine men sexually, and they enjoy having a man in charge. Otherwise, 50 Shades of Gray would never have become a best-seller with women all over The West.
Even Feminist icon Lady GaGa admitted she wants her man to make all decisions at home. Quote from GaGa:
“Yes, actually,” the 27-year-old Grammy winner said. “He’s totally in charge. I mean, when I am home, I am like, shoes are off, I’m making him dinner. He has a job, too, and he is really busy!”
Source: https://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/lady-gaga-is-submissive-to-boyfriend-taylor-kinney-says-hes-totally-in-charge-2014253/
Also see how LadyGag denies being a Feminist, yet she is a “feminist Icon”: https://www.bitchmedia.org/post/lady-gaga-im-not-a-feminist-i-hail-men-i-love-men
In the Western world as a whole, Christianity (through the churches) USED TO provide moral clarity and a set of rules and principles to live and abide by. It also taught men to be masculine, to work hard, and to be “the head of the household”. It emphasized to men to love their wives and put the home and the wife first, just as a captain of the ship puts the ship and crew first. This is why our society worked so well for so long.
(The non-Christian version of this marriage system is the http://www.TakenInHand.com system, which follows Biblical marriage in many ways).
When Christianity provided Biblical moral clarity, the marriage system worked, the “married work premium” existed to the national economic benefit, and most importantly, most people were happy with their country, their lives, and their families. Look at individual happiness levels from 1950s and compare them to today and it is striking to see how miserable today’s Feminist experiment nightmare really is.
Then, over time, the churches (Evangelical, Protestant, Reformed, Catholic, etc) all stopped providing Biblical moral clarity in order to “attract more members” and to “be more open minded” or “less judgmental”. :roll: They began to slowly drift into “moral relativism” and saying to members that everything is basically contextual and permissible, rather then black and white as written in The Bible.
Moral relativism is not Biblical. This false teaching is what has caused the weakening of the Church in the Western world. People drift away from it because it is not teaching God’s truth anymore. Churches give cover to women who frivolously divorce their faithful good husbands, blame men for everything that is wrong, and drove men away from the pews.
Humans need a strong moral compass and a reason to live. Remove that and people will seek comfort in sex, drugs, booze, opiates, and eventually head for depression and despair, and/or crime and violence. Some will seek other religions with moral clarity and since Islam provides that, some chose to seek its destructive path over an empty life without meaning or purpose.
Once churches stopped providing strong moral clarity (started in Europe decades ago), Islam moved in, seemingly to provide the guidance and the moral clarity and guidance that humans seek. Incredibly, some Western European females chose to join Islam, despite the fact that Islam allows men to beat, starve, rape, and even put a woman outside the house for whatever reason he wants.
Moral clarity is something the churches need to restore so that we do not have decaying societies or watch female converts in Western Europe, of all places.
What a mess we have. *sigh*
I totally love how FB’s response to MGTOW is “Well it works for individuals but I don’t see it as a longterm solution”. Well it’s not a solution for one’s promiscious daughters or granddaughters.
But the thing is.. FB and Dalrock’s generation had their chance not to let society be wrecked and they (and their generational cohorts) not only failed the Test Of Life on a massive distributed scale but they are intent on telling us just how useless the natural response by men is (probably because they know EXACTLY how badly it’s needed and have STILL pushed men into marrying they or their friend’s wee little Jezebels!)
What about women’s culpability? As usual …CRICKETS. Excuse me barkeep..can we get a bottle of REAL whiskey..this is the same watered down nothing you been serving here for years…
Just a vet,
“What about women’s culpability? As usual …CRICKETS.”
“Crickets”? I don’t think so. The current situation results from women’s changes to society, which began the gender wars. As I said in the first post in the series: “game is the response to women’s liberation.” That’s the point of this series. This is a reply by Dalrock to the first two posts in this series, which discuss feminism’s effects in great detail.
But this is very clear in this post! See the long discussion of “Eat Pray Love” in section two, and the long discussion about the changed incentives for men in section 3 (about “men on strike”).
Vet:
Women always escape responsibility for their actions. This “Gender Wars” mess we have today is 100% caused by the imposition of Feminism in American society. Women, of course will blame someone else for the mess, but it is their fault completely.
Think about criminal law, how women receive almost no time in jail for the same crimes men spend decades in prison for.
Perfect example: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4864432/Mother-bashed-baby-brags-not-jailed.html
I can give you these examples for hours, if you like. I worked in criminal and Immigration law for 6 years, women get off, men go to prison.
As FM explained in the post, game, Men Going Galt, and MGTOW are responses to Feminism. The problem is, these are symptoms to the disease, not the cure, just as a fever and cough are symptoms of a cold.
As men, we may want to hold women accountable for this mess, but that is pointless. Pointing out a woman’s mistakes ever resolve anything.
What we actually need to do, as men, is to create a broad consensus and solutions that men can push forward as a group (not only individually), so we can restore sanity to what used to be called “gender relations”.
Right now, it is all out war, and men are fighting as individuals and women are fighting it as organized units. That is why women/Feminists are currently winning. If men organize behind set of principles and implement their solutions, men would end the “gender war” and restore balance back to “gender relations”.
This is why this discussion is happening on FM and Dalrock.
Rome fell from mass immigration of the goths. It was already a weak society but the demographics changed radically after the immigration and soon fell
DVDivx:
As someone with a northern Italian mother, the comparisons between America and the declining period of the late Western Roman Empire are stark and shocking. It is actually visible in ALL Italian cities now, with the Coliseum, the symbol of Italian and Roman culture being used a porta-potty for savage barbarians.
It is truly incredible to see so many similarities from declining birth rates, to welfare, economic stagnation, to the weakening of our military (on purpose for last 8 years), to out of control immigration, to the gender wars (essentially a cancer inside our society). I wonder what it felt in the last days of the Roman Empire to be under pressure and under attack from so many sides.
The GOOD NEWS is: we DO have our Fabius Maximus in the White House today. But he needs our support. He is fighting against enemies on all sides, as a symbol of masculinity and American sovereignty.
Question ALL American (and Western men) need to ask themselves: do we leave our Western cultures to die, to continue to the demise they are headed for? Do we abandon all hope and take the Black Pill and “enjoy the decline”?
Or do we rally to the leaders still fighting for our nations borders and sovereignty? Donald Trump… Silvio Berlusconi of Italia… Sebastian Kurz of Austria…. The Polish, Romanians, Czechs, and Hungarians are all resisting, violently sometimes, if necessary. Nigel Farage is the leader of the Resistance in the UK.
There are many resisting our destruction. Do we bond together and form a cohesive message to resist globalism, foreign invasion, and economic genocide or do we abandon all hope?
I think we all need to figure this out soon, as there sure is trouble in the horizon for all of The West.
The U.S.A. will fall too when the government is run by people who have no history of knowing how to build or maintain a great nation.
Harvell,
“The U.S.A. will fall too when the government is run by people who have no history of knowing how to build or maintain a great nation.”
Perhaps. More likely is that America will continue to be run by our elites, who know quite well how to run it. We will elect figureheads, who rant and gesture on the stage. Meanwhile our elites will run things – for their benefit, of course.
I’m not concerned if the author thinks MGTOW is not a good solution for the long term. It works quite well for me. An honest cost-benefit analysis of marriage clearly shows it is not a good risk. Men get hosed and women get cash and prizes. I’ll be friends with a woman but not her husband. When given a “marry me or it’s over” ultimatum (and I have had several) I check my hat and out the door I go. I find that if I keep it out of the bedroom they have no power to hold over me. Women have gotten angry over this. I enjoy my financial security and I will certainly not risk it by getting married…knowing that 80% of divorces are initiated by women. Oh, and trying to shame me won’t work either. I really don’t care what others think about my stand on this matter.